Introduction[]
It's been years since I'm legit talked about Undertale scaling and made a blog on it. I figured that I might as well do so considering one of two things are happening. A VBW downgrade thread was made on the series and two, Deltrarune. Honestly, if my previous blogs didn't do enough job to cover why UT is rated the way it is, then this should definitely do the job, as I plan to cover almost every stone I can remotely address. I mainly created this to respond to the thread itself, as there are just so many arguments that make me wanna bang my head. A certain mod clearly doesn't even know Undertale and as such, I feel the need to mention this via a blog, as I want nothing to do with the site as explained in the past. So enough of the stalling, I think it's time I got into this
Save Files ARE Timelines[]
The first thing I want to touch on regarding the thread is Eficiente's retarded blog that basically goes into length about how timelines and save files wouldn't be the same if they were concrete things within a verse. I'm going to have to say no to that and on a fundamental level at that. Let's actually go more in depth with what a "Save File", as it's the key factor as to whether they are or not
| “ | A block of saved data, representing the player's progress in a game, that can be restored at a later time for continued play. | „ |
| ~ Saved Game; Wiktionary |
By all accounts of what a Save File actually is, the general motif is that they are constructs that act as recordings of moments in time. In the context of a game, it's simply saving the game's world and making a copy of it. If this were to exist in fiction, this definitionally would be a timeline as it functions the exact same way as what it would be. Timelines are just merely copies of the standard universe that also act as recordings of moments in space/time, which is indifferent from a Save File, if it were to exist physically in a series
Keep in mind, a Save File and a Save Point are two objectively different things with their own implications behind it, which even Undertale treats as differently from one another. The former is just a copy of the game's world whilst the latter is just the point in which the game is captured. Being able to destroy a Save File, within the confines of a series that treats them as physical and interactive objects, would logically be Universe Level+ by necessasity of being comparable to a timeline
Responding to Eficiente[]
Now, let's see what Eficiente's takes are on the matter...Yeah, this is going to be lengthy, so I'm going to just pick apart what is necessary and leave it at that
| “ | Imagine you use Causality Manipulation to change up the world in a specific way. For those who don't know it, doing so isn't a Low 2-C feat, one isn't remaking the whole timeline, just things around it. | „ |
No, this is wrong and this logic would only petain to being able to manipulate Save Points which are fundamentally different from a Save File. Let's keep in mind that Undertale makes a clear difference between the two as well. The verse takes note that one can use a "SAVE point"to create a SAVE, which means your logic doesn't apply here. I explained why a Save File would be a timeline, so moving on
| “ | The confusion comes on the matter comes from the following line of logic; "Time shenanigans can create alternate timelines" -> "Save file are done by way of time travel/manipulation" -> "Therefore, save files are their own timelines". Added to it, in a verse one may be able to utilize/load many save files to live the situations they offer, which can lead to people thinking that those situations always exist and do so separately, like timelines. | „ |
Holy shit is that not even close to what people argue. I can't tell if this is a strawman or just they can't interpret things too well. No, good sir, a Save File is a timeline because by definition of what a Timeline actually is, it would be equated to a timeline if it were to exist physically. The treats and characteristics of the two are quite frankly indifferent and exactly the same
| “ | You save your process by, get this, saving your changes as they are on a file smaller and lesser than the whole video, not by creating you own video. And that that you just did is essentially a save file as you would see it in any verse, it has inside the changes that were around when it was created, but it was never meant to have its own timeline. | „ |
This analogy falls flat when you realize that a Save File isn't a lesser part of the game, it's a literal copy of the game itself that is being replicated. This is being completely dishonest of what the hell an actual Save File is and or misrepresenting it fully. Here's a much more accurate analogy. Imagine making a video and then making a duplicate of that video but only focusing on a certain timeframe in the video...That's essentially a timeline, a copy that prioritizes the moment in which it was created
| “ | Likewise, if one can use/load many save files separately to experience the different settings they offer then this also doesn't inherently mean those exist as separated timelines | „ |
How many times do I have to say this...Ahem...THEY ARE COPIES OF THE GAME ITSELF
It's really not that hard to understand man. A Save File in itself simply is a copy of the game itself and it's world, meant to acting as a recording of space and time. Keep in mind, I'm only having this tone because Eficiente is straight up dishonest and known to abuse their power...Although, that's not entirely relevant and I thought I would mention it incase people think I'm being too harsh here
| “ | translating the analogy this means save files would never be as significant as the time and space they're used to basically coordinate. | „ |
Wnat...No, that's just wrong because a Save File literally is a duplication of that world's space-time. I'm not going to go in depth as I already had at this point and I don't feel the need to bang my head anymore than what I have this entire blog...Speaking of which, the worst part of this blog is next
| “ | Furthermore, even if save files were timelines having many of them wouldn't necessarily create an average Multiverse that should be destroyed would give a Low Multiverse level tier or above. This being in the same way than to how if you have a super massive structure inside a tiny thing and you destroy that tiny thing then you're most likely just able to destroy tiny things like it, without accounting for the space inside. If you have a universe inside a cup and you destroy the cup then you're not Universal, if you have many cups with many universes inside in a house and you destroy the house then you're still not Universal, let alone Multiversal. We could also not claim the spaces between timelines in save files to be as big and complex as the unknown spaces between timelines in a realistic multiverse. | „ |
This is legitametly one of the dumbest points I've seen in a while. Assuming Eficiente is referring to full size universes here, not small ones that are so small they can fit in a cup....This is just wrong on an objective level. If I can destroy a cup that is so large, it contains a whole universe inside, it's nothing short of universe and to say otherwise would be go against basic spatial awareness. It's almost as stupid as saying destroying the ocean around an island doesn't mean I can't destroy the island itself, when one clearly outweights the other in terms of how much power is needed to effect it to that degree
Going back to what was said about Save Files....No, if they are timelines, being able to bust multiple Save Files is logically 2-C and nothing much will change that. The only way to refute this basic logic is if we argued Save Files aren't such and I just explained why that isn't the truth, so you basically have little to no ground to actually stand on here.
Mini-Conclusions[]
Eficiente, please stop talking about stuff you don't understand. All of this is just wrong and I explained why a Save File would be a timeline and that said blog would only refer to Save Points. Ignoring that they are objectively different, it wouldn't even matter if they weren't cause even Undertale itself treats them as seperate and different from one another, so either way, my point stands here
We aren't even finished here either, we still got an entire section I have to cover and man, this is going to be a trainwreck
Clearing Eficiente's "Misconceptions"[]
This blog here...Holy shit I can't believe I'm even tackling this abomination. Oh well, I did promise I would eventually refute this and I already did cover one of their blogs...No turning back now
| “ | Sans refers to the same course of actions (in a timeline) getting reset back to a prior point in time and from there you taking other actions, thereby influencing other things/characters to have other actions too, thus "making other timeline". Let's put it in perspective; You can draw things, end up drawing a figure A, but then you can erase some of the things drawn and continue to draw something else, a figure B. Figures A and B are "different" but there's only 1 drawing now. A mention of figure A while figure B is around doesn't mean in context that firuge A still exists somewhere, that thing existed and now it doesn't. | „ |
What kinda of psuedo-intellectual bs is this. No, it's about as simple as it gets dude, Sans is blatantly stating that timelines are "stopping and starting...", which doesn't even need an explanation and is self-evident. Unless you have evidence to support this claim, guess what, occam's razor favors my premise that Sans is just referring to the overall production of timelines being created as a result of determination-based abilities
| “ | This is something Sans can say after you spare him, get comically killed by him, and come back to keep fighting him, he tells you to not tell something to the other Sans-es, which logically mean them being from other timelines. While pretty non-serious, this is true; there were and can be other Sanses in "other timelines". They just don't currently exist on other timelines because they weren't other timelines when he said that. Let alone would you be able to go visit Sanses at will 1 after the other and revisit prior Sanses, that's either not what he meant or if he did, the joke needs to be dismissed. | „ |
There is no evidence there isn't other timelines at that, literally you don't even provide that there's proof of a singular timeline and as such, I can just dismiss your claim entirely. Much less on the basis that it's just narratively and objectively wrong for what is established in Undertale. Keep in mind, the allusions of alternate universes is a proven thing and such examples include the following
- Deltarune is a canonical thing and is treated as a alternate universe
- Gaster Followers blantantly alluding to the existence of parallel universes. Something supported by the River Person
There are more I could bring up but even without the use of The Fun Value and or Save Files, you can still argue the verse has multiple universes and it touching on the concept of a multiverse is a part of the narrative you just can't ignore. Although, I'll get to Fun Values later since Eficiente butchers how they work too and does it hilarously badly at that too
I'm not going to fully cover the contradiction points, cause a lot of it is just making assumptions without much evidence to it and I already explained why some of the interpretations don't even make sense either. One of their biggest evidences is the Sans statement, which should be taken face value and not add details with no proof of their inclusion, although there was one thing they said that was interesting
| “ | When Flowey first referenced himself and Frisk being able to SAVE and LOAD he described it as "the power to reshape the world", Frisk having killed Toriel and gone back (in time) to spare her, saving her life, Flowey also says that Frisk's desires for "this world" override his own. This fits nicely with the same timeline being "reshaped" while nowhere implying other timelines being recreated. In fact it would seem unlikely for a timeline with a dead Toriel to exist when Frisk just saved her life, this is "the same Toriel" just like how the same Sans has his achievements reset and just how everyone in the happy ending is threatened to be thrown back to the start by you. World also seems to clearly mean nothing more than the timeline in context. | „ |
This interpretation is false and that's taking things out of context at that. What Flowey was saying that Frisk possessed much better DETERMINATION than even himself and that's why he couldn't SAVE & LOAD like he initially could prior to Frisk's arrival in The Underground. Something tells me that you haven't even played the game or something, honestly, it feels like you haven't if you genuinely did at this point
Also, no timeline with a dead Toriel ? How about the several Neutral Route endings where you do kill her and you get a different ending out of it. Honestly dude, please stop talking out of your ass and actually get a clue of what you are talking about
| “ | What Goner Kid said can be interpreted in a number of ways, whatever he meant can be irrelevant to take as a canon fact to acknowledge or not, if the latter is the case then he could refer to something about "another" timeline or something else, if he meant as "another" timeline then that doesn't necessarily mean that a multiverse exists in a way that would make Chara's feat above Low 2-C, and lastly, if you interpret things otherwise there is actually solid information the game give us to contradict that notion, therefore meaning that it's wrong and cannot be used. | „ |
No, it really can't be interpreted in as many ways as you are letting off. The most basic and logical assumption here is that Goner Kid is referring to an alternate timeline where you don't exist. If you don't agree, say that to Occam's Razor cause it agrees with my premise. Your argument would need proof, otherwise, I can just (and in fact, I will) dissmiss it without any proper evidence to back it up
| “ | this is just a thought a kid has. More importantly, given the different interpretations of what he said that I'm yet to point out and the vague indications of them no one's meant to take facts out of this. That much being the more likely take on the matter; "Cool to speculate about but nothing's confirmed". Goner Kid saying "Please don't think about this anymore" can refer to its irrelevance in this sense. | „ |
Proof it, please, you haven't even provided a logical reasoning why your interpretation should be taken above what is the most logical assumption to be made here. Honestly, not even sure how you could brush it off as irrelevant either considering it's actually quite important enough to be mentioned by Goner Kid to begin with
| “ | Hence fitting with everything the game brings about there only being 1 timeline. Or alternatively, many timelines do exist via this but they're not part of "Undertale" as in what Chara destroyed, thereby fitting with everything the game brings about there only being 1 timeline. As said before, Undertale having many game mechanics as real things that exist in-universe doesn't mean all of them inherently are. | „ |
Why would Fun Values not be a canonical thing when they are alluded to so many times and are supported. You have to literally prove this as Goner Kid DOES support their existence alone, combined that we have blatant evidence of alternate universes existing due to Deltarune's relationship with Undertale at that
| “ | That is not confirmation. Her research consists of watching anime as well, and she believes Mew Mew Kissy Cutie is out there, in an alternate universe. Taking her word on that is as reasonable as accepting her claims that humans go around with giant swords and mechas. | „ |
Okay, this is so out of context that this is dishonest. Alphys having these thoughts relates to humans and that's it, this doesn't suddenly invalidate her knowledge on general science and cosmology, especially when you consider that she is apparently intelligent enough to be a successor to Gaster. Saying that Alphys has no grasp of science as a whole is objectively wrong and requires evidence. She clearly doesn't understand humans and that's what's hammered in by the series, not that Alphys is unreliable in the field of science in general
Regarding Asriel not nuking the timeline...Basic context clues my man
- Asriels states he is going to erase the timeline
- He does this course of action
Nothing contradicts it either, keep in mind, Asriel literally restores everything after you talk to him and confort him. So the argument of "why are there still things after the fight" is stupid because we see Asriel restore stuff and break the barrier at that. Quite frankly, Asriel destroying the timeline is just a fact, there's nothing else that would say otherwise
Conclusions[]
Man...There was so much to cover here, that it's actually really insane. I never thought you could misinterpret a game this badly and straight up be dishonest in some parts to this degree. That is Eficiente in a nutshell tho, always misinterpreting things and not understand basic logic in the process. Although enough throwing jabs at them, cause I can talk about Eficiente's stupidity all day. That aside, many of the points where just terrible and genuinely felt as if they just were from someone who doesn't even play the game itself. He really felt like he say some video and deems himself an expert. That aside, we are done here, I wasted days on this, so ehh