Introduction[]
Just when I think things couldn't get more bizarre with the debating scene, one thing that confused me with how contentious Mario scaling has been as of late. For those in the dark, there are many people who contest Mario being rated around Tier 4 (such as Large Star or Multi-Solar System Level) and think that he sits accurately at levels such as Tier 7, specifically at Small Town Level...Well, I'm come to make this as I think such a notion is completely ignoring everything that has been shown in this series
I'm going to be honest that I was putting off doing this but since it's beginning to get somewhat huge, I feel it's overstayed it's welcome and thus it's time for me to refute basically every argument that disproves Mario from being "Skyfather Level" cause such notion IS supported by the series itself, contrary to what extremist scalers want to believe...So enough talk, let's dismantle this
PIS & It's "Consistency"[]
Before I even get to the feats themselves, there's something important that must be covered. It's no stranger that for all the crazy feats that Mario has as a part of the verse, it has many anti-feats and moments that treat Mario as being a regular human or not too far from one...However, this is such a ridiculous premise to go off of and on top of that, many of the "anti-feats" are consistently contradicted by showings in the series, sometimes contradicted by the SAME GAME
So yeah, let's go over some common points that I've seen people used and explain why they are just dumb
Mario Can Die From A Goomba[]
This is just factoring in solely gameplay and ignoring the lore aspect of Mario. It is CONSISTENT that Goombas are basically bottom of the barrel as far as enemies Mario faces. We have guides that basically cite Goombas as being a joke to Mario and enemies that he can take on without much of an issue
This is also proven by the fact that Goombas are typically placed in LARGE numbers and are called some of the weakest of Bowser's forced. The former suggests that unlike the stronger forces of Bowser, they need units to even stand a remote chance
Typically this is used by people who really lowball Mario and or don't have much awareness of powerscaling...Still think it's worth mentioning here because it's an annoying thing to see used
Mario Can't Break Giant Rocks
This comes from a moment in Origami King, where Mario is unable to break a giant rock blocking the path
Arguments that utilize this come from a place of ignorance and here's why. While Mario is portrayed as weaker than Wario, he's still comparable and Wario can EASILY and casually break large boulders...If scaling Mario to Wario doesn't sit well with you, then I still have a case as to why using this as an argument is done
Mario himself has feats of being able to kick an ENTIRE Castle with ease or how about causing one to collapse by jumping atop it. I can really go on and on about this but narratively speaking, Mario not being able to break a rock is dumb, it's consistent that Mario can topple things MUCH bigger than a large boulder
Bowser Almost Died To A Castle Collapsing
Okay, seriously, are we playing the same series rn. Do you even know HOW MANY times Bowser has survived the destruction of his castle and basically was either in decent condition or essentially unscathed. For example, this happened in New Super Mario Bros Wii and Bowser is completely fine, mind you, doing this whilst injured.
We can just argue this was a plot induced stupidity, unless we can prove that Mario consistently is threatened by castles collapsing upon him...In which case, good luck finding anything like that
Mario Needed Bowser To Escape A Cave and Break Giant Bricks
So are we gonna just ignore that Mario has been depicted time and time again as being able to easily destroy large bricks and do so without much of a challenge. Why are we cherry-picking this one narrative instance where Mario fails to destroy boulders on his own and ignoring the consistency of that being wrong
The more I look at these arguments, the more I really feel like people are nitpicking so hard...Which isn't really far off from the truth when you consider where half of these original from
Mario Is Never Treated As Some Cosmic Destroyer Who Can Nuke Stars and Universes
This is one of the stupidest arguments I've heard and it ignores so many things that I can make an entire blog post specifically on this alone. To keep things very brief...Since when are we rejecting FEATS based off of how a series treats a character, like ignoring how logistically dumb that is, you do know that by that logic, we should just have most video game characters at Tier 9 tops
Let's ignore that Flynn can shit on multiversal demons, let's ignore that Cloud consistently beats characters who can flip planets, destroy/create solar systems and on top of that, let's just say that feats are meaningless. When you go down this road of logic, why even powerscale, why even suspend disbelief or account for what the feats themselves tell us in relation a character's power
If Mario Is So Fast, Why Doesn't Beat The Game In Quintillionths of A Second
Cause it's a video game meant to evoke challenge. This is basic understanding of what a game actually is and why most characters in gaming don't just instantly shit on enemies despite canonically being stronger. This logic goes into the above and it's equally as ignorant, as with that type of logic..Why not argue that Bidoof is above Arceus to say "If Arceus was the strongest pokemon, why does the game let me defeat him" and other ridiculous points that I can't see how anyone in good faith can argue
Mario Cant Survive High Falls
This doesn't just pertain to Mario, as I've seen people go as far as to say this applies to the whole cast. Them not being able to survive large falls is just narratively wrong. As early as the SECOND game (in the US), we see that Mario and crew can survive falls from immense hights but I know some people are going to say "GaMePLAy MeChANicS" (whilst using them as arguments against my points) and to that I say have you played Super Mario Sunshine, where Mario survives a HUGE fall and no sells it completely
Peach Is Unable To Break A Cage
This argument is dumb for a multitude of reasons. It lacks context and it just ignores basic principals of gaming. For the first part, it's heavily implied that the cages that Peach are put into are magical in nature and not some everyday regular cage (also evident by Kamek being able to poof them away)
Secondly, this argument ignores what a game is...The point of the Mario games is to rescue Peach and if she could just break out, then it defeats the status quo of Mario as a whole. So even if they were magical cages, it wouldn't matter cause this point is still dumb as it ignores the very point of a game, which is to entertain. This is why you don't beat Mario in an attosecond despite him being narratively capable of such
Mario Gets Knocked Out From The Sky
I've seen people use that Mario getting knocked out in Mario Odyssey, after he had fought Bowser, was proof he wasn't Tier 4 and this is so stupid. Are we gonna ignore that Mario was COMPLETELY fine afterwards and had no signs of injury. You also have to keep in mind, Mario had just got down fighting Mario as well, so that can explain why that even happened
Are we being serious right now...Are we seriously using this when the SAME GAME has shit like this as a casual feat...Yeah, this is cherrypicking and not worth the time of refuting. This can be refuted with everything I've said up until this point honestly
Bowser Gets Knocked Out By Explosion
You mean the same explosion that he shakes off literally seconds later. Honestly, are we done here or are we gonna fine other Tier 7 nitpicks that are clearly just a result of outlier
The Arguments[]
Now we are moving onto the real deal and I think it's time we get into the feats that are more contested. This is going to be just as lengthy as, if not more so than the previous section. There is a lot of cover here and it's going to be a shit show at that, so let's not waste anytime with this shit...It's been a long overdue process
Feat #1: The Black Jewel And It's Universe[]
This is going to be the one I'm going to cover first, as it's the most contentious at the moment. I'm going to say that whatever contention there is with this feat, makes no sense and I'm going to highlight the arguments that are typically used against this (Besides the idea that it doesn't scale to Black Jewel due to creation not scaling to AP; Reason being that can be a blog on it's own, suffice to say, I disagree with that notion)
Black Jewel Only Used Small Parts of It's Power[]
Wrong...In the game, it's made clear that Black Jewel by negative energy of desires and Wario, who's literally the most greedy character in the series, is a literal feeding ground for Black Jewel's power, so it getting weaker or holding back doesn't even add up as an argument. The complete opposite is happening, which is The Black Jewel is getting endlessly more powerful as the game progresses
The idea it also holds back is laughable, it would have NO REASON to do so, especially when it's at near death and is fighting for it's life at that point. Another point that goes against all above is how The Black Jewel can still harm Wario (and he can tank it's attacks) even if a single Spriteling hasn't been freed, which BTW, their power correlates to how many there are. So even humoring the argument that they weaken The Black Jewel, there should be no reason it is nerfed when none of them are saved
The Black Jewel's Universe Isn't Real[]
This is the meat of this portion, as I've seen people argue that it's not a real space and it's fake or an illusion...This is dumb for a multitude of reasons but let's go over some of the arguments I've seen used to support this notion
The Celestial Bodies Are Just Backgrounds[]
No, this is false as nothing suggests they are fake. The dimension is meant to be bizarre and the reasoning for the appearance is simply because it's mood changes with the appearance of the stage. In essence, it's altering it and thus should scale regardless. That being said, the burden is on the opposition to prove they are fake stars, as the general rule of thumb that celestial bodies in a realm are concrete unless there's something to suggest otherwise per Occam's Razor
The European Source Calling It A Universe Is Wrong[]
I've seen an argument saying that the European source is wrong simply cause it says it warped the basement as opposed to the castle...This is such a huge display of semantics that I genuinely can't believe anyone with a functioning ability to think would say this is legit point. Okay, humoring that ridiculous premise, you do realize that nothing changes if we went with both interpretations, the basement is PART of the castle. NOTHING CHANGES the context between which interpretation you use and thus, the semantical argument above doesn't hold true
The European Source Is Not Canon/Shouldn't Be Used[]
Explain why it shouldn't. European Nintendo typically are better with translations and on top of this, it's an official translation did by the company itself. Why are we disregarding it just cause it isn't the original language. Unless the translation contradicts the original source, then I see no reason why it's official translations shouldn't be taken into account to argue contextual points
Feat #2: Power Star Creation[]
We move onto one of the reasons I made this to begin with...The Power Star stuff is very contentious and has a wide array of interpretations. Some of them are reasonable assessments and others are just completely left field, making no sense whatsoever. I'm going to at least provide why I believe it should be interpreted as at least 4-A
Power Stars Create Small Realms[]
This argument makes no sense, the statements regarding the worlds they create go against this. Official guides state are called "worldwide" which indicates that they are on a vast scale and this is only proven by the several statements that states they are big enough to encompass reality. This also ignores the reference to stars existing in these realms, which are a consistent thing as well
I personally think the realms that The Power Stars create are universal in size but that's not the debate, what is the debate is the fact they aren't really small realms (specifically the stages being their full extend in size), they are narratively meant to be very huge, containing stars at the very least but with certain statements, you can argue they are universal in size
Power Stars Don't Scale To Users[]
The point I wanted to tackle most in this section. Power Stars should ABSOLUTELY scale to the user, as we have many instances of them empowering the characters who are holding onto them or Power Stars being able to amplify users. One of the most blatant examples of this comes from Mario Party DS, where it's directly told to us that Mario uses the power of the stars. There is no debate here, it's very blatant as it tells us exactly what the purpose of them are, which is to power users. How about in both versions of Mario 64, Power Stars give power to those who collect them, indicating that just having them gives you power alone (for those who are really hard pressed on English translations, this is consistent with the original Japanese text). There are even more examples such as Mario Galaxy, where Bowser Jr. HEAVILY implies that the bosses who are refought are juiced up by The Grand Stars (which Power Stars should be similar to) and that they used them to obtain the form they take now.
Suffice to say, those who have Power Stars SHOULD be empowered by them. We have many games across many different eras of Mario that consistently point to the notion that Power Stars are a source of power to those who collect them and bosses who use them can even obtain a different form and become stronger than the first time they were fought. So yeah, they scale, end of convo
Feat #3: The Grand Star & Reactor[]
There is a who slew of arguments and debates surrounding this feat. This one might be a lengthy one but suffice to say, most arguments lowballing the extend of The Grand Star are ridiculous and thus, I think it's only fitting to highlight the arguments that I'm going to be refuting
The Reactor Would Only Effect A Galaxy[]
This misconception comes from the fact that the game itself says that Bowser will create his personal galaxy and he simply intends to spread his empire...The issue with this argument is this completely ignores the context, as Bowser's empire had ALREADY expanded and we have evidence of this, such as Bowser's minions being in other Trial Galaxy, a place that exists at the ends of the universe. The expansion of empire argument doesn't work as he already had done this per reasons above and the notion he was only effecting a galaxy is dumb because in the same game, Bowser tells us he wants his own universe
Let's also address that if Bowser was only going to effect celestial bodies such as planets and stars...Well, that's pretty dumb because Bowser ALREADY can do that and even create black holes. Why would he want to create objects he already HAS made at this point. Suffice to say, this point makes the least sense
The Reactor Doesn't Utilize The Grand Star's Power Fully[]
Wrong, Bowser was using so much of it that The Lumas genuinely were scared that they would kill it. This implies that Bowser was using a huge sum of it's power, enough to were if nothing was done, Bowser would have exhausted it's power and ultimately drain it entirely of it's energy. To say this doesn't scale to The Reactor and it's power is utterly absurd in such a context
The Mario Galaxy Guide Contradicts The Game[]
Nope, if anything it adds more depth to what's said in the games itself. The argument that supports this is the statements that Bowser says throughout galaxy, ignoring that what he does doesn't go against what's said in the guides. Being able to build a wide empire is totally possible whilst also changing the universe as a whole, hell, it'd be much faster than destroying and recreating it from scratch and as spot on as possible
The bottom line is, Bowser's statements work in tandem with the guide and don't instantly go against what's said, so the guide being contradictory doesn't work on such a premise and this ignores that so many things would be left unanswered without the guide, so it's kind of a necessity regardless of how you scratch it
Bowser Can't Touch The Reactor Without Burning[]
Let me throw out an analogy
Let's say a character can survive the big bang but the IMMENSE heat of said big bang severely harms them...Why would we ignore that he can survive the big bang just because it was specifically the heat that caused him pain and not the sheer power that the big bang holds...I say this because it's the same premise here, as Bowser wasn't bothered by the power but it's heat
The bottom line is that being burned by the heat means nothing and is completely independent of The Reactor's own power, which is Universal+ in scale. Bowser being effected by the heat would at worst just be an example of him not being able to tank immense heats but we already have examples of Bowser not being bothered by immensely hot environments, so this could just be a weird situation
The Black Hole Didn't Effect Space And Time[]
I've seen people argue that the black hole at the end of the game didn't effect space and time...Ignoring what the guide said, we have various indications that it did and one of the most blatant examples is the fact Dino Piranha was revived despite being defeated before or the many NPCs who are new back when they weren't there before reset. I can go on, the point is, it did effect time on a universal scale
Feat #4: Launch Stars[]
Now we are moving into the speed feats and here is where I have things to say, as many of the contentions with the speed feats are some of the most nitpicky and semantical things I've seen in a while...So let's just get into this
Launch Stars Don't Scale To Speed[]
The argument that Mario doesn't even scale in speed to them is absurd, as Mario has to to turn and steer his movements when being launched from them and the nail in the coffin is the fact that Mario has to actively stop himself from crashing into a planet, implying that he can understand and perceive the speeds he's going at as well
Launch Stars Are Controlled By Lumas[]
I've seen this used as a means to dismiss Mario as being the one who's moving and instead, it's the Lumas who are preforming everything. This is an interpretation I disagree with as there's nothing to suggest they are the ones directing him and moving Mario himself. All the blue outlines do is give a path for Mario to go, however, all the movement and swerves that are made is all Mario's reactions
Feat #5: Bowser Hits Lubba's Spaceship[]
I've seen so many "debunks" on this that it's getting old, so let's just go over this one because refuting all the bad debunks to this feat has been long overdue by a span of years at this point
The Ship Was Slowing Down[]
We have no evidence to suggest that Lubba's ship was attacked whilst it was slowing down and or stopped. Why would the spaceship even stop in the middle of open space when it's sole purpose is to travel to different galaxies and worlds. If anyone can even provide a reason they'd need to stop, then I'll talk, until this, this is basically conjecture that stems from literal nothingness
Let's also assume that the ship was slowing down to %1 of it's top speed. The ship has feats of being able to traverse at these speeds, the feat was calculated at 76,703,835,590,306.39 (at the lowest mind you)...If we reduce that to 1%, that means the ship's initial speed should be 767,038,355,903c (aka still MFTL+)
Suffice to say, no matter how you look at it, it's still MFTL+ and still scales to Bowser...Only way it wouldn't is if the ship was completely stopped and we have NO evidence for that, in fact it's stated THEY RAN into Bowser, implying movement
Galaxies in Mario Aren't Real Galaxies[]
Since I know there is going to be someone who says that the calculation above is wanked cause "GAlaXIES ArEN't ReAL SiZed" and to that, I say you are dead wrong. I've people use the courses as a means to say that the galaxies aren't real and are small, which comes from a HUGE place of ignorance. Bowser Jr.'s Airship Armada proves this wrong as even though it's a course, it's not labeled as a galaxy, implying that the courses we traverse are NOT the galaxies themselves and said courses are IN the galaxy. This is also supported by texts such "welcome to the galaxy" being displayed. Keep in mind, the same game has actual depictions of what a galaxy is that is true to our reality
Suffice to say, courses should not be treated as galaxies and we have actual depictions of real galaxies, meaning that galaxies in the verse ARE such, actual galaxies
Conclusions[]
I think I covered the majority of what I needed to refute. This post has been long overdue and if there's anything else I need to cover, I might add onto it. That being said, I think the notion of Mario being below Tier 4 and Massively FTL+ is absurd and what's even more absurd are the arguments people pull to argue against, instead putting him at shit like Small City and Subsonic to Hypersonic...Sorry but this is wrong and hopefully I provided enough of a reasoning and refutation to the arguments in favor of the opposition
So yeah, we are through here, hopefully I don't have to make another one of these again